Alcide, Protection Warrior [Declined]

[AlcideIV]

Derdriu. wrote:

It transfers 10% of their threat to you, meaning that's 10% more threat that they can cause before having to hold back because of overaggro.

Yeah, we're pretty much all talking about the same with different words :-)

[AlcideIV]

Chamual wrote:

Isn't it 20%? Because theirs is lowered 10% and yours is raised by the same amount?

Good question, how does it work?
Let's say x is the threat the tank generates and y the threat the party member you have vigilance on generates. Let's say vigilance is at 10% (15% with the glyph) of y

Then the formula for the tank aggro: x+0.1y
and for the dps aggro: 0.9y

The net win for x/loss for y would then be 20% (30% with the glyph)

It does look to good to be true though, can someone back this up?

[Jaenus]

Hi their and thanks for applying to Echoes of Lordaeron, I am Jaenus Class Rep for Warriors and the dude whose gonna be looking over your App in order to help out our Recruitment officer make her decision.

Firstly i have to say that it's a nicely written application, and you seem like a pretty level headed guy, willing to listen to advice and answer questions about your toon which is imo the best way to improve as a player.


Gear is pretty much a mix between toc25 - ICC25 level and i don't see anyreal points of concern screaming out at me when looking over it.

Talent I'm i'm only going to comment on your primary tank talents rather than your 'experimental' one which a few others have already mentioned, nice to see you trying out new things with a second prot build as an offspec though as it shows a general interest etc in developing yourself as a player - also that your committed to your role.

About the main prot spec though i would have to ask a few questions on some unusual choices, which i personally wouldn't have made. Sort of surprised to see you omitting Focused Rage and Improved disciplines though - instead you have gone for cruelty 5/5 - honestly I'd advise you change those points around.

Glyphs also are not the norm, Not having the Blocking (Major) is a serious mistake as its pretty much a staple of prot builds, also i wouldn't bother with the Glyph of Command (you'll rarely if ever be having to apply shouts in raids anyway) go for something a bit more useful - Glyph of Charge for example.

However nice the application is unfortunately as Miriel - the Recruitment officer has said already, at this moment in time we are exceptionally heavy on tanks and as such I am really not sure if it would be possible to squeeze another one into what is already full to the brink.
I'll speak to Miriel and the people responsible for creating the set-ups for the raids tomorrow and find out what they say about the exact situation of space in raids. Once I've managed to do that I'll try to get an answer to you as soon as possible. As always the final decision will be made by Miriel - taking all factors into account.

Yet again i would like to thank you for your application and its always a pleasure to review someone who has put thought and effort into his character.

[AlcideIV]

Hey Jaenus,
Thanks for thinking so and don't worry, if you're full you're full.

Let me go over your issues on the glyphs first. As a matter of fact, I do have the glyph of blocking in my primary build and this since I hit level 40 or 50. It's in the second build that I don't. Finally, you're obviously right about the glyph of command, it's doesn't bring much to the table. I'll browse once more the options and try to find something more useful.

Let me now explain why I didn't chose those two talents you mentioned. Improved Discipline reduces the CD on Shield Wall, Retaliation and Recklessness by 1 minute, from 5min to 4min. I ignored Retaliation an Recklessness given that I don't use them in boss fights. It leaves us with Shield Wall, which in my opinion classifies as a "panic button". As such it should only be used in extreme cases, which shouldn't occur more than once in a fight. Besides, even with the 4min CD I believe it wouldn't be off CD at an appropriate moment again during the same fight. This because I can't imagine one would use Shield Wall near the begin, probably in the last half of the fight. Finally I didn't choose Focused Rage for a very simple reason, lack of rage has occurred only marginally so far. With Cruelty on I build a huge lot of threat. It would be interesting to find out if 3 Talent Points in Focussed Rage generate more threat than +3 Crit. As it is what we are really talking about. Unless there is something about Focussed Rage I'm not aware of. I just explained you what the process leading to these choices was. I'm not pretending I'm right.

This said, I'll be happy to answer further questions about my little warrior.

[Jaenus]

Hi again, just to answer a few of your answers (if that makes sense :S), Focused rage is basically playing off on the reduced cost of abilities allowing more efficient rage use and thus a higher threat gen by the use of more abilities, so in short its all about rage-efficiency. I'm pretty sure one of the Mainspec prot warriors has a lot more insight as to the exact math of this though - my tanking practise is strictly in theory form these days :<.

Shield wall on the other hand - certainly in most of the ICC content is a panic button, but also one which you'll need to rely on and given the option of having it available a minute earlier it can be a life (and raid) saver. With us not having the ZOMG CD's of certain other tank classes, the chance to have this back up and running again in some of the harder (longer) encounters can be crucial. It really is one of those things that will have you doubting choosing it until the time you need to pop it twice and the reduced CD means its available. VERY much a 19/20 times not used - but the 20th time completely irreplaceable.

[Shamarice]

Jaenus wrote:

Hi again, just to answer a few of your answers (if that makes sense :S), Focused rage is basically playing off on the reduced cost of abilities allowing more efficient rage use and thus a higher threat gen by the use of more abilities, so in short its all about rage-efficiency. I'm pretty sure one of the Mainspec prot warriors has a lot more insight as to the exact math of this though - my tanking practice is strictly in theory form these days :<.

Well focused rage is just even when we don't have rage problems it save you a lot of gcd's waiting for enough rage, currently i am rarely in the position that i have rage problems, unless some other tanks taunts of me my rage drops heavily due to no damage and Focused Rage gives you just the little less rage that can be needed for grab rage back.

Jaenus wrote:

Shield wall on the other hand - certainly in most of the ICC content is a panic button, but also one which you'll need to rely on and given the option of having it available a minute earlier it can be a life (and raid) saver. With us not having the ZOMG CD's of certain other tank classes, the chance to have this back up and running again in some of the harder (longer) encounters can be crucial. It really is one of those things that will have you doubting choosing it until the time you need to pop it twice and the reduced CD means its available. VERY much a 19/20 times not used - but the 20th time completely irreplaceable.

Well speccing 5 points into cruelty is in my eye not that handy i would switch those points indeed to focused Rage and Improved disciplines, by speccing in improved disciplines you reduce the CD's on all your major abilities by quiet some time, and when you glyph shield wall you get a 2minute shield wall, 3 minute Last Stand. Which is commonly used in ICC since the "taunt off" timers are so close to each other specially in fights like the prof/festergut there a must to survive as long as possible during inhale fases on fester or stacks on prof.

On sindy i am quiet sure you will use them often also. One thing i noticed is that you gemmed a lot of expertise but that's due to the gear your choose.

[Jaenus]

Thanks for the further explanations Dune, greatly appreciate the input on the Prot side of things as always

[Laerel1]

Good lord if you dont know how vigilence works really you should look it up oO

It takes 10% off of every point of threat the target causes, and gives it to the casting warrior.

Say a mage fireballs and deals 100 damage, that would normaly be 100 threat, however vigilence will reduce that to 90 points of threat and give 10 to the warrior.

It is for all intents and purposes a flat 10% threat reduction.

Of course when the warrior who casts vigilence is tanking the dps with vigilence does hav more or less an extra 20% leeway I suppose, but for one point its worth taking simply because you can lower someones threat, and no other class in the game can do that (paladins suck)

[Feronius]

I agree with everything said, even though I didn't read it.

Always use protection. *Gives his thumbs up and nods wisely*

[AlcideIV]

Well, I think I do know how it works. My point was just the diminishing someone's threat or improving the tank's one is pretty much two sides of the same cord, since threat and aggro are relative.
Besides, I think we should not talk too much about vigilance, since I do use it, have been using it for a while and I'm pretty much fond of it.
The thing I'm gonna try out is what has been suggested about Focussed Rage and Improves Discipline in my Primary Protection Spec.
I also changed my second protection spec according to the dwarf warrior's suggestion (sorry, dont remember your name mate) and i'm pretty satisfied with it for now.
See you later

[Laerel1]

AlcideIV wrote:

since threat and aggro are relative.

....wut? o_O

[AlcideIV]

Hi again,
I was just saying that threat is not an absolute number but a relative one, a percentage. That's why you have it displayed on percents on your omen. The pull from the tank being at 110% for people in the hit box and 130% for people outside. This said, since threat is relative, if you reduce it on the dps/healer or increase it on the tank it ends up to strictly the same effect.
This about your comment that the main advantage of vigilance was to reduce someone's threat.
See you later

[Laerel1]

I think you have missed my point, and you seem to be just typeing random stuff oO

[AlcideIV]

yeah, it does seem like we kept on misunderstanding each other for a while

[Saraesa / Liesje]

Threat actually is an absolute number. You can make omen to show the number.
But the importance of those numbers is all relative to what threat others have. For a tank it's most important that you're threat on the mobs you're tanking is higher than that of others in the raid. That is relative.

Now I don't know shit about tanking, but I do know the meaning of the word relative "Connected to or depending on something else; not absolute; comparative."

In the case of threat : threat itself is absolute. What number of threat you need to tank efficiently is relative to the threat of the people in your raid.

Clear now?